The Path to Team-Led Architecture: From Opinions to Advice

Hello and welcome to a new episode of Stories in facilitating

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software design and architecture.

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We, are very happy that we have

our first guests in our series

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of media where we share stories.

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Today we have with us not only, our

good companion, Kenny, who's here.

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Hello, Kenny.

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But also we have Elena Uba technical lead

for Open gi, as well as Peter Hunter, who

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is the technical architect for Open gi.

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Today we're gonna hear a story from Elena.

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So do you wanna take

it away from us, Elena?

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Elena Stojmilova: Hello.

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as Andrea mentioned, I'm technically

lead in open G and we have implemented

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and we are still using decentralized

decision making process, in our,

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way of working in our company.

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So I will try to make like a timeframe

how this started and how it's going now.

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So our beginnings were like four,

almost five years ago in the time when

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the world was changing, everything

was changing, and we also decided to

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make some changes within our company.

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We did a lot of changes, in the ways of

working in the technology in we, we wanted

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to migrate to cloud and, according that

we also wanted, to change the way how we

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are making the architectural decision.

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Thinking in that time, it was quite a

lot, a lot changes, a lot to consume.

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But now, and I'm reflecting on it,

maybe it's the best way because it

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all comes and everything is changing.

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And you're saying you started to think,

okay, it's good to try something new,

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to try something new and everything.

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my team was one of the teams that we

started a new program, Cloudberry,

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in which, my team was part of it.

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And, we, changed the ways of working,

but on another side, we wanted to create,

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independent autonomy teams that will

make the architectural decision, will

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be responsible for different context

from our product and will be independent

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in the way how we implemented that.

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So the first biggest change for me was

that the first part when the team was able

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to make the architectural architecture

decision, it was a huge change.

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Well, like at the beginning I was.

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Okay, that's great.

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We will finally be able to decide what

technology we're going to use, how

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we'll make the things and we were like,

okay, we can try different technologies.

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We can try this, we can try

this or, and everything.

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But when we started actually to do it

and think it, it was, oh, it's not that

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easy because you are your first time.

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We were always working as a

engineer, as a software engineer,

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and your mindset and the way of

thinking is different in that part.

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You are mostly focused of, coding and

best, coding standards and everything.

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If you are more experienced, you

will think like how this can be made.

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What will be the impact of if I made this,

changed, let's say the database structure,

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if I'm not using relation database

and everything, but when you actually.

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Are kind of have power

to do that decision.

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It's, yeah, first, first time.

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Okay.

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We can try non relation database.

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It'll be great.

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We'll learn something new.

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It's something that I've always wanted

to try to do it, but, when you actually

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start to think of it and you still,

you have like a principle that you

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need to follow, you start to think,

oh, there is a cost there, I must.

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Be, thinking of the cost.

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And after that you would think like,

okay, there is other things that are

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going to be impacted from my decision.

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So I will change their, the way

of their, how they're working.

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I will change some of the contracts.

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So you need to think of them.

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And that's where come the

reality came and, but on another.

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But thinking now for me, that's, the most

powerful way of learning because you are.

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Starting to see the wall picture, you're

starting to think of, the product you

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are building, not just like one piece

of application, one piece of code.

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You're thinking of the all, the system.

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And, when it comes to actually making

the decision, for me the most important

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thing is, to have the support.

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So at the beginning, you'll not have

the skills to make that decision.

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Technical, non-technical decision, skills.

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And it's really important to get

some support through that process.

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And I must say, thinking back from

that time, Pete and Andrew were the.

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The people who really support me

and the other technical leads and

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everyone, they were guiding us.

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If, as I remember now, I used to come

back to, especially to Pete, like

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with the question, should we do this?

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What do you think is the,

is this the best way?

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But, he was kind of changing that

way because we were work previously

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and in that time, like it was other

people that was just trying to.

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Give me some advices.

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You can try this, but consider this also.

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But see what will happen

if you choose another way.

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And also here in injury, they

didn't go with the, this is the

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best option, you should do this.

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But they were just advising

us and supporting us.

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And this support is not only for

the technical part, it's also for

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the soft skills to kind of help

you to grow in that role because.

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At that time I'm technical lead and

I have a team that I needed to lead.

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And it was also, new for me.

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I was kind of used on that change.

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And also I needed to kind of change,

change the team, it change how the

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team is, thinking and how the team is

performing and how the team is working.

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And I must say that I also

get some support and advices

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from Peter and Andrew here.

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And that is very important, not just to.

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Support the people into their technical

skills and what technical approaches

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to do what architectural decisions

to be made, but also support them in

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the way of how they're making that

and when I'm here, I will say the

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architectural decision records that

we introduced, they are one of the

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biggest help for me at the beginning.

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The first one, it wasn't maybe

the best one because it was.

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First one, and it was a big decision.

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We made it and we were like trying to

change everything because you, you know,

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you want to do trying something new.

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You want to build something new

and you want to do it in the best

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ways, like the best architecture,

principles and everything, but.

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And we did it like we

made that first, a DR.

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From perspective from now, it was too

much, too many decision maybe with,

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from, taking from now, I will try

more iterative approach, doing smaller

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decisions and doing, doing it one by one.

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The first architecture,

advisory forum, it was.

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Good.

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Because in that time when you're

first starting, architectural advisory

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forums are really proudly, like you

have a lot of people there, a lot of

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opinions, a lot of advices and opinions.

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A lot of people can have a strong

opinion and they will share it.

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That is a good, but another society

can influence your decision.

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In a way maybe that you

don't want to do it.

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So you need to be kind of calm and to go

through all of that advices, all of that

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options, consider each of them, but don't

let data influence your decision in a way.

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Like, okay, he's saying that

he's the most, I know him.

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He's, very proficient with

that and that technology.

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So I will just follow his

advice or his opinion.

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In architecture decision record process.

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I, I will say now, I'm using it as a

process, as a guidance when I'm making

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the decisions, it really helped me,

because when I'm starting to do like this

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is we have something new to implement

and we need to make a new decision.

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Just try starting with writing in a DR

At the beginning it was just me for,

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as a technical lead because somehow

I wanted to get used to that practice

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of doing the decision and also using

the ads and writing them after that.

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We, now, when we are doing that as

a team, so we are mostly, sometimes

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we are writing, we are calling

and starting to think like this

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is the decision we needed to make.

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This is the context.

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This is, what we needed to achieve.

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Those are our architecture principles.

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So let's see, what are our option?

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We are going one by one of

the, each of the option.

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As a team, we are deciding, doing, need

any spiking or additional investigation,

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for any of those options to get more

knowledge or to try it and see it.

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So we are.

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They are, guiding comes

in creating a new spikes.

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And after that, when everything

is finished, we are consider

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all the results as a team also,

and we are making that decision.

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Now in this, like after

four years also, I'm.

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Trying to get more, advices during

the process of the decision when

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it's needed from the architect.

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I must say at the beginning,

it wasn't like that.

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First we were making the decision

and after that we were just sharing

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conduct, actually advisory forum, and.

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Yeah.

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After that we received that advice.

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But now, when we are practicing this,

it's more efficient when you're including

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other people like architects or other

people, stakeholders, that can help you

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in the process of making the decision.

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So, I'm trying to include some of our

architects when I'm thinking of all

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options, like writing some, high level

diagram and asking them for any advice

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or any thoughts or any, uh, or some of

their opinions because I might miss some

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technical knowledge, or I miss some.

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I'm maybe not aware of any context

knowledge, or I missed something

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about the product and everything.

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And that's really, helped me.

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It's helping me.

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And, when you are writing the architecture

decisions record and everything,

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maybe the most common question is how

you are making sure that the people

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will, do the things that they're.

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Writing on, like when they're writing

the architecture decision record,

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making sure that they will do that.

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For me it's most important to have,

people who has like that culture

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of people that have accountability

and they have a sense of ownership.

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Yes.

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When you are starting, you must

choose at the beginning people

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who have that soft skills also.

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Because it's not just that you need to

write idea, it's your responsibility

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and you're accountable that, what is

writing in the idea you will make it.

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There were some key situation in the

past also for me, when some of the

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decisions we have made have changed.

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Yes, we, it's, that's can, happen and that

will happen because over time you can.

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came like, oh, maybe this

is not the right decision.

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Maybe we should do it.

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We should, we should do

it in the different way.

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You can, change, you can, change it.

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You can supersede the previous idea

and write a new idea and that's okay,

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but you need to make the culture

that you will write a new idea in.

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Do that.

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How the ideas are helping us as a

team is they're sharing because,

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on the architecture advisory forum,

all the teams are sharing the ideas.

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We have a kind of culture

of shared knowledge.

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Because in the beginning, when this wasn't

like, a process, each of the team was

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working installation and we were mostly

focused on, this is our context, this

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is our work and this is our context.

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Yeah, you can hear from someone like,

but in informal conversation, some

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of the team is doing this on some

presentation, but it wasn't formalized.

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But now when you are in architecture

advisory forum, you can hear what

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other teams are doing, what are

the decision they making, what are

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the technologies they're using?

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And some, sometimes you can come to them

and ask them for help and, advising.

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Sometimes you can reuse,

some of their implementation.

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And that is a really big, benefit

for me because sometimes you see,

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okay, okay, they have tried this.

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Can we ask them to share their knowledge

and we can see and consider we can try

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this also in, in our, in our context.

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Andrea Magnorsky: It's great to hear that

from your direct experience about how

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the advice form you with the knowledge

sharing because, and you also mentioned

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that they, the, especially at first,

those seem quite crowded and, also

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that it was kind of hard to, right.

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I need to keep my head on and so, so

that, that's, really nice to have a, a,

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your, your first person account of that.

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Do you wanna, like, tell us a little

bit more about that, bit, about the

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bit of, the, that first time and maybe

how it's, how you grew from, you know,

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maybe getting more confident with it.

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Elena Stojmilova: Yeah, at the beginning,

especially on the first a D area,

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there was a lot of comments during

the architectural advisory forum, the

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meeting itself, but I must say here was.

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Pete and Andrew, and they, they were

good facilitators and it's really

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important to have a good facilitators

during that meetings, because.

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There will be situation when no one

will have opinion and there will be

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situation when everyone wanted to have

their opinion and they will share it.

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We have like a, on the first aid, lots

of, a lot of comments and a large, big,

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extensive comments and opinions and

how we, how I did it and how we did it.

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In that time we were, I was

working, preparing with one of,

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other technical lead and we.

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Go offline after that meeting.

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And we have, a discussion with most

of the people that have commented that

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have, some, opinion about, for us,

most of the opinions were in that time

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weren't, like, agree with our decision.

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And that was also what's kind of, make me.

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Nervous in that time because you

are making the first decision

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and a lot of people are okay, but

this is maybe not the right way.

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You should do this and you should do this.

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And we go like offline to each of them

and ask them like, and consider them.

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Like I remember we take notes and we were

making a big moral board in that time.

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Consider each of opinions and see,

okay, what should I do and what.

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Should we consider this or not?

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In that time, maybe some of the comments

or some of the opinions were because

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people were not quite aware with the

product we are doing and everything,

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but all of them were beneficial for us.

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It's really good if you

have, comments and, opinion.

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They are always welcome, even if

they're not, especially if people are

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not agree with your opinion because

you might have missing something.

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You might have not.

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Not aware of something, uh, not, not have

that skills to make the right decision.

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So it's, for me, it's really important

people to be encouraging to give

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their decision, to give their advices.

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how we continue, we ask people to

write them on the ideas itself.

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We always asking them to write them on the

ads itself, so we have a track of them.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: So can I ask,

because you're saying opinions, right?

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And from an advice process, you want to

have advice, instead of opinions, right?

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So I'm also maybe curious

about Pete who is here, you, I

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hear you're facilitating this.

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And maybe both of you, it doesn't

matter who answered this, but how do

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you deal with the fact that people are

coming in and I, oh, I'm an engineer.

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I did it myself.

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Strong opinions, weak,

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Pete Hunter: Yeah,

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: it again?

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I, I, I don't remember the statement

anymore, but strong opinion.

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Pete Hunter: strong opinions, weekly held.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: so from

both of your perspective, one

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from a facilitator, but one from

actually, Elena, you were part of

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the, you, you're coming with advice.

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So maybe start with Pete and then

I'm curious about your, site, Elena.

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How do you, how did you deal with that?

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Pete Hunter: So I guess from my

perspective, it was, quite difficult

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'cause you're trying to play Switzerland

in the advice process, right?

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So you're trying to be impartial, you

are trying to facilitate conversation.

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some of that conversation

will be opinion, right?

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Because everyone does have an opinion,

and sometimes they're giving their

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opinion with the best intention, and

sometimes they just wanna be heard.

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so I think making sure there's space and

time for everyone to share their opinion.

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But also kind of, I guess from

my perspective, I would, if, if

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they're just forcing opinion.

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would then go into the

role of asking questions.

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Right.

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So you start to unravel some of

their thinking and sometimes it is

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just purely opinion, but sometimes

there's something behind it.

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There's a reason behind it, and I

think that's why it's never worth,

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even if you think it's an opinion,

because you've formed in a, a

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kind of a, a view of that person.

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it's worth digging into it, because

there will be something that they

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have thought of that they think

impacts the decision you're making.

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So even if you see them as opinions.

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It's still useful information.

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It still validates your decision.

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It still kicks the tires on your decision.

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Um, so it try not to, and I think

Eleanor was very good at this, even if

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their opinions, you still validate them.

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So yeah, that's,

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler:

I can guess, right?

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People how to react can

also be like a gatekeeper.

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Can imagine, right?

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Because some people just don't

know how to express themself.

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Maybe like me, English is not

my first, my first, language.

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So expressing myself can

be maybe harder even.

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so yeah.

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Elena, how, how is that for you?

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Because I can imagine, right,

dealing with criticism, because this

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is what I'm seeing a lot, right?

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You're, you're asking for advice

and you get harsh criticism.

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How did you, how did you go with that?

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Very curious.

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Elena Stojmilova: I was used to opinion,

for the first a DR like, on purpose

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because I must say, like most at that time

when we first started with architecture

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advisory process and everything, most

of, our comments were, strong opinion.

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We have a lot of people that have

like a strong, strong opinion.

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We should do this and that

is the best way to do it.

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And that's why we, uh, have at the

beginning how, at the beginning I

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said, I have said like, it makes me

a lot of nervous because you are at.

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First time making the decision.

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You have a lot of people with different

and strong opinions, but how, we did that.

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Like we have a conversation

with each of them.

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We just appreciate their opinions and,

and, go in more detail because you.

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It was necessary for me, to be more

sure that, we are not missing anything

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and that we consider each of the,

each, each thinking in our decision.

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I will say like some people, yeah,

it's sometimes it's part of the nature.

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Some people will have

still strong opinion.

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It's really important to

appreciate everyone opinion.

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For me, I personally really like to hear.

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More comments on my area.

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Even if that is opinion not

advisors, I would like to hear them.

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I'll say now, when we are in the

practice of the architecture advisory

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Forum, we kind of used of how we

are adding the opinions Now most

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of I, I can say that now we are in.

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Better place comparing with that, uh,

uh, uh, four years, four years ago.

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So it's not, yeah, there are still,

people with strong opinions in everything.

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But most of the discussion on

our, on our arcs, uh, advice

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advices, and we are mostly there,

is I am mostly receiving advices.

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Should, can you try this

or should you try this?

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If you consider this not just

strong opinion, this is the

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best way how you should do it.

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It'll need some time.

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You kind of to, to, to be me as a person

who is writing the idea to, uh, to

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kind of adjust on receiving all that,

opinions and advice and, consider them

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in your decision making process, but

also to people who are coming to the

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architecture advice to be prepared to see,

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different opinion, different

decisions, and to cons to go

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through them and consider them.

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So also it'll need time for the

audience that is on Architecture

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Advisory Forum to kind of adjust

and go with the, advice process.

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Andrea Magnorsky: Seems like your org has

evolved quite a bit from that first, the

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first time I, I'm kind of curious about,

you know, you kind of say, oh, these

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days it's mostly advice, and was there

any particular one of these decisions,

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like in between four years ago and

now, was there anything that was like.

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I wish we would've done some tweaks.

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I am sure the process changed

slightly from there and I, is there

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anything there that is salient?

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That's like a, I wish I would've

known that, about the advice form

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itself and how to facilitate it.

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'cause I think that seems non-trivial

and that you would learn a lot

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from, from an experience like yours.

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Pete Hunter: I mean, I mean, one

of the things that I've, I've kind

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of reflected on, we went in from

a cold start, so straight into

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an ice bath and figure it out.

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I do think the, from a, architecture team,

who were present on that, first a f and

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afterwards, it's quite a shock to them.

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So I think they need a bit of a

longer lead into it than actually

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the tech leads and the teams.

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I think, communication skills

are really, really important

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for, for that type of forum.

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Also their role was changing, right?

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So their role, the role of architects is

now not to hand down on a stone tablet.

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The, you know, the architecture.

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It's to, facilitate and share

their knowledge and help

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people make better decisions.

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But that's not, you know, if you've

not been doing that for the last.

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4, 5, 10, 20 years, that's

not gonna come naturally.

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So I think the lead up into that

for architects probably needs to

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be longer than it does for the

teams that are actually making the

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decisions, they'll run into it.

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Um, but that, that, that brings

other problems that it's so.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: It's sort of

like architects have so much learned

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how to do architecture in one way.

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I remember.

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To, learning the piano one time, like

I did it a year, but they say it's very

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important to go to the teacher because

the moment you put your fingers in a

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different way than it's useful, then

unlearning that takes a lot of time.

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So I guess for a lot of architects,

what you're saying is Yeah,

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Pete Hunter: Okay.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: learned one

way and now they need to unlearn that

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way and learn it in different way.

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While maybe tech leads and

people in teams, they are not

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necessarily already learned in how.

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that architecture works.

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So for them, it's easier to learn

because they don't need to under.

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Pete Hunter: Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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It's, they're moving forward

outside of their comfort zone.

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So yeah, it's all new to them with

architects, it is, you know, it,

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it is about that, that they've

previously been on broadcast and

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the deems have been on receive.

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That broadcast now starts to

become a two-way conversation and

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potentially a conversation that will

go in a different direction than

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they would hope so.

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They have to, Adjust their

muscle memory, I guess.

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Andrea Magnorsky: Thank you very much

for, bringing us to this amazing story.

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It's really nice to hear first

accounts and, yeah, thank

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you for being here with us.

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Kenny, Elena, Peter, see you next time.

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Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: you next time.