Uncovering the Ghost Decisions in Your Architecture

hello and welcome to virtual TDD we are doing

2

today a stories on facilitating

software design and architecture.

3

In this episode, the third one

of our series, we are with,

4

Kenny, Andrew, and myself.

5

We're gonna start today with

Andrew telling us a story about

6

how they have been facilitating

software design and architecture.

7

Over to you, Andrew.

8

Andrew Harmel-Law: Thanks

Andrea, and thanks for, having me

9

Kenny as well, and both of you.

10

It's super cool.

11

I did manage to join the first one,

but it's super cool to join this one.

12

The story that I wanted to share is kind

of, it's an amalgam of lots of different

13

experiences I've had with facilitating

software architecture and design.

14

Um,

15

so if people recognize different bits

of this, 'cause I'm a consultant,

16

and I work for ThoughtWorks.

17

people recognize different bits

of this, that's because I see this

18

kind of thing over and over again.

19

But the thing I wanted to talk about and

kind of maybe get your thoughts on is.

20

Every time I've, I think almost

every single time I've started a

21

software project, come on board.

22

Even if I come on board very early at

the beginning, I'm always trying to

23

find like the first or the, the most

fundamental architectural decisions and

24

trying to figure out what those are.

25

'cause they've happened already.

26

Right?

27

And maybe they were implicit or maybe

they were, just like legacy decisions

28

from like, the history of, why the

project got to the point it's got to.

29

And what's interesting to me is the

fact that those decisions which are

30

kind of fundamental or underpinning

or very early kind of stage decisions,

31

typically have a very long shadow and

they have a very long effect on things.

32

And what's most interesting

to me is the fact that don't.

33

It, it's, it's not even like everybody

knows they're there and people don't even

34

acknowledge the fact that they exist.

35

one example, I went to one place and,

I've been to multiple places, but for

36

the benefits of this story, I went

to a client and they were working on

37

a rewrite and a rebuild of things.

38

And so therefore it was

a rewrite and a rebuild.

39

So everyone was kind of treating it

as if it was greenfield and if it

40

was completely fresh, things which

kind of touched and informed the

41

fundamentals of what we were doing.

42

so those kind of things were almost like

non architectural decisions, but decisions

43

which have an architectural impact.

44

So for example, when people were picking

like, what's the thing we're gonna build?

45

Or what's the product

we're gonna build, right?

46

That kind of frames the landscape

and within which you're doing,

47

and it kind of dictates where

the edges and the boundaries and

48

the scope of your landscape is.

49

typically when I join,

someone's already figured out.

50

How many people you'll need in

teams and what teams you'll need

51

and all these things kind of Right.

52

And again, like as, like, I

don't need to convince anyone

53

that, that, that has an impact.

54

Um, but what's interesting is, is to

figure out what those things have been.

55

And typically when I have come in

and like, and trying to figure out

56

architecturally, 'cause we need

things to be quite black and white.

57

Right.

58

Quite, very distinct.

59

Right.

60

Kind of in and out.

61

Yes and no.

62

All of these kind of things.

63

So from an architectural decision

perspective, once or twice I've done

64

this, where I've come in and we'll

end up having conversations and I'll

65

eventually say this feels like there's

a previous proceeding decision.

66

The time that this worked the best was

I started somewhere and there was a

67

bunch of decisions which were kind of.

68

Historical decisions, which, you

know, were not maybe made the most

69

optimal decisions, they were the

decisions that had been taken.

70

And that was where everything was and

that was where everything was headed.

71

so after a big, long conversation with one

of the architects that I was working with.

72

They offered.

73

And so this was their idea, not my idea.

74

They offered to kind of write down

those big decisions like reverse

75

engineer the ADRs, kind of like filling

in the history, you know, 'cause

76

like adr, I, definitely feel anywhere

kinda like an immutable change log of

77

what you're doing in your software.

78

But we were missing the initial

one or two or three things.

79

So they wrote down these ADRs around

about when we move these teams and when

80

we decided to pick this technology.

81

And they even recorded like, these are

the three different options we selected

82

and these are the reasons that we thought

were bad at the time, but we still did

83

it because these were the circumstances

and it was interesting for them to

84

kind of go back and do that kind of

archeological digging back through stuff.

85

But it also, gave a lot of clarity

to the constraints that were there

86

and why those constraints existed.

87

And then that allowed people to kind of

challenge them if we were like, right,

88

we can't do this because of this, and

they're like, well, the reason we didn't

89

do this at the start was because if

you look in the a ADR we didn't do it

90

because we didn't have enough people,

or we didn't, you know, we like product

91

management, didn't think this was as

high a priority as this other thing.

92

And then we could say, right now

we're looking at this decision again.

93

'cause you can kind of go back

and refactor some of these

94

fundamental decisions or like

not, or revisit, not refactor

95

With that clarity as to why, 'cause

people kind of think that some of these

96

decisions are, untouchable, right?

97

You can't go back to them.

98

But if you go back and remind yourself

of the context, then you can say,

99

this context has totally changed.

100

Like we've, we were a 12

person startup, right?

101

And now we're a 200 person scale up.

102

So now we do have people

to do stuff, right?

103

Or there was another decision, I think

this one's in my book, where the client

104

wanted to move really fast and they were

basing everything that they did on AWS.

105

But there was one thing that

they wanted, there was a chip set

106

that was only available on Azure.

107

So therefore they took this decision

to do something knowing that they,

108

their strategically target platform,

that they didn't have this chip

109

set that they wanted available.

110

Then they could go and say, right,

for this small decision, we're gonna

111

take this thing and go to GCP and

it'll be like a bounded decision.

112

So it kind of freed them up and it

reminded them what the actual constraints

113

of their previous decisions were as

opposed to these kind of not very clear.

114

Implicit decisions setting.

115

Artificial kind of boundaries on things.

116

And that was super important.

117

The reason we did it at that time was

because the client I was working for

118

was a scale up, so they needed all of

this clarity to make it clear to all

119

of the new people joining why we're

doing this, why we're doing that.

120

I think having done loads of things

since then, I think it's a kind of

121

approach, which could work really

well, like these fundamental decisions.

122

Like if you're working in a multi-tenant

system, what do we mean by a tenant?

123

What's the boundaries of our

systems, et cetera, et cetera.

124

What things, what's our core domain?

125

What are the things we build?

126

What are the pieces we don't

build, et cetera, et cetera.

127

so loads of those things are typically

implicit, but you can pull them

128

out and make them explicit, even

if they're kind of underpinning.

129

So that's my experience.

130

And I was wondering like what you're,

I guess maybe you've seen this kind

131

of thing before as well, there.

132

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Well, it

really reminds me of some workshop

133

I've did in the past called.

134

Appreciative Inquiry, which had nothing

to do with decisions, but everything

135

to do with like events or decisions,

And it, really reminded me about

136

that, And now I'm thinking about,

oh, it would be really well to do an

137

event storming, like event storming.

138

What decisions have we done?

139

So far and what are

decisions that we still make?

140

you can 100% sort of

like events from that.

141

What are the events that decision took

place even though they're not right.

142

so that's my first thought.

143

And then with appreciative inquiry,

what we did then was looking at

144

what are some good and bad decision

and there's a difference, right?

145

What are some.

146

Good and badly made decisions and

what were some good decision that

147

had bad outcomes because right,

the resulting there, there, there's

148

a difference between the two.

149

But I think you could definitely

like storm that out in a whole group.

150

That was my first thought.

151

And then you can take, which

decision do we want to take with us?

152

Which decision do we need to change?

153

And then you can do sort of like a

reset maybe what what you're saying.

154

Then write some of these

stuff down as an as.

155

Okay, we took this decision, this is

what we know, and then just move on.

156

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah,

157

like baseline or like snapshot in

like an event driven system, right?

158

You're like, we don't, we

could go all the way back.

159

But then the further we go back,

we're into like people remembering

160

and like half of those people or

maybe all of those people left, right?

161

Like I see things before we're like,

nobody can quite remember what the

162

decision was or why it was taken.

163

It's just, we use this

software to do this.

164

And you're like, why?

165

No one can even remember

why this happens anymore.

166

Andrea Magnorsky: that was kind of my

question as you were talking about this,

167

is there a particular trigger that made

you want to, like, is it more about

168

like, I found I, Andrew found it a good

practice too when I start the place, try

169

to make this explicit to make your life

as in making change easier basically, or

170

is there particular signals that you are

looking for to implement this strategy?

171

Andrew Harmel-Law: That's a good question.

172

So I think now, because lots of my

practice has kind of come about from,

173

like, we were talking about this a bit

before, started recording Andrea, right?

174

Like, I don't think there's,

there's a lot of this in my book.

175

I had a, not a fight with O'Reilly,

but I was trying to make, when I

176

wrote my book, I was like, I don't

want this to be like a recipe.

177

Do these things and then you will get

success because you kind of don't,

178

it's more like, watch out for these

things and then you'll probably

179

be able to figure out what to do.

180

So.

181

came about because it was a

specific client and we were there

182

specifically to help them scale up.

183

So they'd made loads of decisions

super fast and they figured out what

184

their problem solution fit was, and

their product market fit was right.

185

They'd figured that out,

but they'd run really fast.

186

So the people who were there remembered,

although the different people who

187

remembered different aspects, like

the reason we picked Amazon over

188

GCP is this, and if you spoke to

someone else in the data team,

189

they'll be like, we hate those guys.

190

We, lost the battle.

191

Whereas like the people who wanted

AWS don't think anyone lost.

192

They're just like, we

picked the best thing.

193

So that was kind of like to

to just for that purpose.

194

It was like keep having to explain

the same thing over and over again

195

to every new person who joins we just

want to explain and we want to say,

196

we know it's not perfect and we know

everyone wasn't happy and we know

197

we may regret it because at the time

it was good, but now it isn't good.

198

Um,

199

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: That because

that's something interesting you, they,

200

we need to re-explain everything and

there's a telephone game in there.

201

Andrew Harmel-Law: totally.

202

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: the

decision, and this is what I

203

see many times as well, right?

204

Some person made decision,

never wrote it down.

205

And then when you come in, you

talk to one person, they say, A,

206

and you talk to one person B, and

there's already a conflict, right?

207

And then when you ask is,

okay, who made the decision?

208

When is it made?

209

Nobody would say, ah, well,

you know, it's over there.

210

I made that decision

and this is the reason.

211

And it, it's never one coherent story

when, when you don't write 'em down.

212

Andrew Harmel-Law: totally.

213

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: That reminds

me of there's a total telephone game

214

going on there and then ranking.

215

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

216

And because this, this is, and that

goes to two points that kinda, I think

217

we don't worry about enough, but make

a big deal difference because build

218

software, I don't think I've ever seen.

219

The software being maintained by a team

with the same team that built it, right?

220

We move around a lot, right?

221

We do a bunch of stuff.

222

We arrive somewhere.

223

I mean, I know I'm a consultant, right?

224

So I do this, this is my job.

225

But even then, there's very infrequently

someone who's been there forever.

226

And then there's the danger of, you

know, like Alberta brand Le would call

227

'em, like them becoming the dungeon

master and all this kind of stuff, right?

228

But most people move around, like

very few people are living in

229

the code bases that they created.

230

They're living in the code bases

that someone else created, and

231

they're trying to, and if they

don't know the reasons why.

232

like you said, that you don't get,

decisions are good and bad, and that's

233

a, what Diana and Ian would say, right?

234

Architecture, like you do the trade

offs and all that kinda stuff.

235

There is no best decision, or

sorry, there's no right decision.

236

It's the best one given the circumstances

and what you know, et cetera, et cetera.

237

And then you hope that decision gets

into code, which maybe may, doesn't,

238

maybe doesn't happen, but like, this

is like the thing, like the explaining,

239

like you're saying Kenny, right?

240

Like people go.

241

They go like, you told me this thing

when I joined, or I read these pages

242

on the wiki and then I looked at the

code base and I'm having difficulty

243

understanding, at least if you have some

ADRs, at least for significant things,

244

you can explain like the historical forces

that were affecting this kind of thing.

245

Which helps people like raise the empathy

for the code base and each other and

246

all of the other different things and

understanding they can reverse engineer

247

the mental landscape of what was going on.

248

As to why things are like they

are and then they know what they

249

can maybe try and fix or maybe try

and change or maybe try and evolve

250

And I think

251

because I've talked about this elsewhere,

I think at New Craft, like there's

252

like different bits of code bases can

have like strong ego power, right?

253

Like it can feel like you shouldn't

touch it because someone who's probably.

254

a senior executive, like wrote

these parts of the code and

255

we all know we can't touch it.

256

And you're like, but why?

257

Like they don't live there anymore.

258

It's like they built this

thing and then they've left and

259

gone and done something else.

260

Andrea Magnorsky: Some people, some

places that they still, they, like

261

I know of, I've been there and I'm

sure you've probably been there too,

262

of places that they left and they're

theoretically in some other position.

263

But in reality, if you

touch that, their baby.

264

You know, these people will

cry and will come down and be

265

like, oh, you touched my baby.

266

What is the story with this?

267

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah,

268

interesting and I think like,

I've seen this too, right?

269

Like if you write that down, 'cause people

forget, like they're like, oh, I did the

270

best thing and I built the best thing.

271

But they never, I don't think, when

you speak to most people when they're

272

doing things, they're like, no, there

were a bunch of forces and these

273

are the things that we were taking

account of at the time and stuff.

274

Andrea Magnorsky: actually, this is thing.

275

So I'm gonna answer this last, but

how do you write down about the power

276

imbalances, in ADRs in a useful way?

277

Andrew Harmel-Law: See,

I don't think I do.

278

I think this is something I

want to think about more is I'm

279

thinking about it more and more.

280

It's definitely not in the book, I mean.

281

I think it should be in the book,

so yeah, but it's not, I think it's,

282

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: This is

a good question because I face

283

this myself, and I'm very curious

about other people's thoughts.

284

we maybe can do a whole

episode about this.

285

Like, there are some personal reasons

that are very, let's be honest, we are

286

in a patriarchal or in a male-dominant

industry where if you're dealing with

287

emotions, It's very hard to talk about.

288

Most of the time.

289

I find it very hard.

290

Well, I find it easier now, but I've been

to a lot of, therapies to talk about that.

291

But, I've had situation where, you

know, there's a clash and there's a

292

lot been said about an architecture

decision writing that down felt very.

293

Hard for them to like write down.

294

So going into the conflict management,

should we write down the conflicts

295

and the power play that was there?

296

Because that's relevant context, but

it's also very hard to write that down.

297

A how do people interpreted

that and B, it's very fragile.

298

Andrea Magnorsky: It's

extremely context aware.

299

So my question really was about

that, the things like, it's important

300

because if there was a conflict and

even the decision, the thing that you

301

were explaining earlier, Andrew, that

thing of, oh, we chose AWS and the

302

data, people are like, oh, we actually

preferred GCP or something else.

303

And it's like all those

people that did even.

304

That should be in the a DR, but it

probably isn't this is why it's so

305

important because when you revisit

this decision, people that have

306

a memory will be like, oh, we're

gonna get them back, the staff.

307

Or maybe not.

308

Or maybe they'll be like, you

know what, actually we live with

309

AWS and it's, it's all right.

310

We always just wondered, and so.

311

My general take is to say there

was a conflict and not, and it's

312

like, it might be worth talking

to people in data and blah.

313

The, these were the two points,

but, it's not always possible

314

to write that down safely.

315

And that's where Kenny's comment

come about, the safety of,

316

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

317

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: We

318

Andrea Magnorsky: of who's writing what.

319

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: yeah, we should

definitely dive deeper, but I think

320

you just portrayed a heuristic, right?

321

What if something on a personal

conflict, like we call it, we call it

322

personal based and relationship based.

323

So what if there's a

relationship based conflict?

324

Do we write that down?

325

But I think it's a good heuristic

to just write down, there was

326

a personal conflict, just.

327

Talk with these people.

328

I think that that would be a good

heuristic already to, to help people.

329

Like what, if you deal with that, do

this for now and maybe in the next

330

episode we could, definitely dive deeper

331

Andrew Harmel-Law: there's one thing

actually I forgot about this in my

332

book says, there's someone at my

current client who's using this, and

333

it's really good because there's a

lot, there's where I'm at the moment,

334

there's a lot of teams with a lot of

people trying to move really fast.

335

Not everyone agrees with

every single decision.

336

And, but there's a thing I've

suggested, and I've seen it

337

occasionally in ADRs for when you've

got the pros and cons of each option.

338

You can say adopted despite, right?

339

So we take this, even though we

know that this is a downside, right?

340

So we've taken this option, even

though this is a downside or rejected

341

despite, and I've seen that work

well where people, they at least

342

feel acknowledged and they feel

acknowledged not in the comment section,

343

they feel acknowledged

in the body of the thing.

344

So you can say, right, I disagree

with you, but I'm still gonna

345

acknowledge that kind of stuff.

346

And like you say, Kenny.

347

It doesn't need to be like these

people fell out with each other, but

348

this was a disagreement and stuff.

349

There's bits in my book about

coalescent argumentation.

350

So it's like trying to figure out

where the area of disagreement is,

351

because when there's disagreements

frequently it's like, right, I don't

352

like Andrea, so therefore any idea that

Andrea comes up with is terrible, which

353

let's be honest, is not gonna be true.

354

But maybe there is a thing where we're

like, right, this bit we disagree.

355

And then when we, when you zoom in on it.

356

So writing about ADRs can be good.

357

And again, my big thing,

small ADRs, right?

358

Because if it's a big a DR then

there's a, there's the, the

359

chances of a clash is far bigger.

360

If you break that up into smaller

pieces, you're like, this comes from

361

Reinert, and it's like principles

of product development flow.

362

Within every big decision,

there's one or two bad ones.

363

you break a big decision

into 20 small decisions, then

364

like 18 of them will be good.

365

And then two of them might

be bad or hard, right?

366

But at least you can then focus and

then you can have a discussion and a

367

disagreement about something specific

as opposed to, I will block your whole

368

thing because I don't like the fact

that you're going to use Node for this

369

tiny little, some library I don't like

370

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: think next session

we could definitely invite Gien talking.

371

About decision making, because

decision making theory, there's

372

also a lot about what we want.

373

So I think that's an interesting, how

would we write that down, what we want?

374

So that's a personal interest.

375

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

376

Andrea Magnorsky: I

think we're on time-ish,

377

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: Yep.

378

Andrea Magnorsky: so maybe we

should do some closing comments.

379

Maybe a little summary wouldn't be amiss.

380

So it feels like.

381

Andrew told us a story about

surfacing, implicit, and very

382

important, decisions that happened.

383

That's a good way to kick off things.

384

Then we talked about how, conflict,

how we could maybe include

385

conflict or not in this, in ADRs.

386

Anything else?

387

I, I mean, there's more

than that obviously,

388

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: I think another

heuristic here would be, write down past

389

decisions that cause conflict, right?

390

If there's a lot of confusion.

391

just start writing them down

and, and reset them in a way.

392

Andrew Harmel-Law: Yeah.

393

Because decisions are made

at a point in time, right.

394

It's what you knew and

thought and felt at the time.

395

Andrea Magnorsky: So is

that, a goodbye for now

396

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler: yeah.

397

Andrea Magnorsky: for this episode?

398

Well, thank you very much

and see you next time.

399

People listening to facilitating

software architecture and design.